Interview: Marty Friedman

I interviewed former Megadeth guitarist and current J-Pop songwriter, musician and general media celebrity Marty Friedman for The Japan Times recently. The article is here, so by all means have a look at that. While you’re at it, check out Ryotaro Aoki’s review of the album Inferno as well.

There was so much more I could have said but this idea of the enthusiasm of rock seemed to be the thread that ran through our chat, and I needed to talk about the album, plus I wanted to get into some of the technical stuff about song composition, so in the end I had to jettison some of my ideas. Friedman gets stick from some Japanese pop fans, partly through old-fashioned jealousy that he’s this guy “living the dream” off the back of a privileged background with a big name band in the 90s, but also because I think the Japanese pop industry uses him in ways that aren’t necessarily congenial to his talents and knowledge. He clearly has very deep musical understanding of Japanese pop, but when he’s shunted off to industry expos and things to talk about the potential for Japanese pop success abroad, he’s perhaps not the best guy. As a fan of J-Pop, he naturally likes it as it is and doesn’t want it to change. He can only see its marketing potential in terms of its appeal to him, so the idea of twisting it and manipulating its style, sound or presentation to fit some overseas market niche just doesn’t appeal to him, and I think that comes across pretty clearly in this interview. The trouble is that if the role he’s been assigned is predicated on the idea that Japanese music should be marketing itself overseas, you catch yourself in a trap of only marketing it on its Japaneseness, and only marketing it to people already kindly predisposed to “things from Japan”. The end result of that is just Tofu Records and failure every time.

Where Friedman could be a more valuable figure would be in just using him to explain about and raise awareness of Japanese music in a way that plays on his strengths. He’s written a book on Japanese music which really ought to be available in English, but as is so often the case, the Japanese pop industry only really seems to be using him as a way to help them feel good about themselves and isn’t really interested in letting him do what he’s best at. He seems to be on some level aware of that and the decision to do the new album as a specifically “foreign” thing perhaps relates to that, although more obviously there are commercial and market-related reasons why it was a sensible decision as well.

Anyway, I enjoyed talking to him and he seemed to be a genuinely very nice guy. I’ve put an edited transcript of the whole thing below.Marty Friedman: Inferno

MARTY FRIEDMAN INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT:

It’s strange in a way that after all this time in Japan, with you having a metal background but working in J-Pop, it feels that now is really the first time you make sense as an entity in the Japanese music industry. I think it was on that Momoiro Clover song you played on (Mōretsu Uchū Kōkyōkyoku. Dai Nana Gakushō “Mugen no Ai) where I first felt that those two strands had really come together.

I can understand that. I would stay the stars aligned on that. Hyadain is a producer I always wanted to work with, and it was the perfect vehicle for his kind of insanity and mine, and it came out really nice.

There certainly seem to be more people thinking in a similar place these days.

It’s all very incestuous. I mean the guitarist in Babymetal, he plays guitar in my band who I’m going to Europe with. It’s a very small group of people. Babymetal was conceived by people who put together Dempagumi inc. and they just played before my band Metal Clone X today at this Chokaigi thing.

You’ve talked before about how that mix of genres that wouldn’t necessarily go together in America is part of Japan’s appeal to you.

The possibility that anything can possibly happen is way greater in Japan because the fans aren’t so genre-specific. If you’re a metal fan or a rock fan in America, you’ve got to keep it on the downlow about listening to pop or dance or rap. In Japan, you like it you like it. When I played with Momoiro Clover Z, that crowd was louder than any heavy metal crowd. It was just, ‘raaaagh!’ Pantera or something, it was insane. I think people are less shy about having an open mind about music and that’s why musicians are more open to crossing over and stuff like that.

Coming from a metal background, what I’ve always noticed is that working in the music business, they’re all metalheads, but there’s no money in metal, but they try so hard to mix it with other things. Babymetal’s a good example. I’ve done so many things where it’s a pop project but, ‘Make this metal. Play your ass off on this!’ and I love doing it because I love to inject my own thing in everything. All the time I find that all the people who are in good positions, putting together projects and working at the record company, they’re really rock people who were inspired to be in the music business by rock. I don’t think people listen to this mellow pop and that inspires them like, ‘Wow, now I have to get into the music business!’ People enjoy it and they go on with your lives. When you’re a rock guy, there’s something that makes you want to be in the business, as a photographer, working at a label… I mean, you’re not going to be a fan of Cat Stevens and all of a sudden decide to be a roadie for Pantera or something. Rock gives you the inspiration to get involved.

And it’s often people you’d least expect are just totally jamming metallers. Yesterday I did the show Asian Music Network and one of the guests was this singer Crowd Lu. Totally ‘dome class,’ plays the domes wherever he plays and it’s like the lightest music you ever heard — it’s lighter than Pizzicato 5 or something — and he says, ‘I grew up listening to your guitar, I wanted to play like you so much!” To me! And he sounds nothing like me, it’s much cooler and hipper than anything I would do. I think in Asia people don’t say, ‘All right, I’m a rapper, I’ve got to be a rapper forever.’ People can have different tastes and blossom into really amazing things, but lots of people are born out of a really hard rock background.

But in a way isn’t it just that Japan has different rules and once you learn what they are, it’s every bit as formulaic?

Right. There’s a hard and fast rule in Japanese music, which I think is actually kind of cool, they put melody first, above everything else: above the singer’s ability, above the singer’s looks, even above the songwriting, especially above the production. So that’s good, because if you’ve got a strong melody, the interpretation can be anything. You can have this really drastic, crazy underground, hardcore interpretation, or this Skrillex-sounding noisy modern American type stuff, or it can be this old-school ballad, or it can sound like Chicago, which lots of Japanese ballads do. Once you’ve got the melody, you can interpret it however you want. I find in American music, what is more important than the melody, what’s important is the singer’s looks, the quality of the lyrics, the quality of the singer. Americans take it for granted, you’ve got to be a great singer. In Japan, you don’t have to be a great singer, but you do have to have a great melody and your voice has to have some magic in it. In America, you have to be Celine Dion or Leona Lewis to get any attention, and even then you sound like everybody else who’s trying to sing like that. For me, I’d rather have fifty different interpretations of a strong melody than some fantastic singer and the melody’s third or fourth place on the list.

People mistake talent for the wrong thing. Being talented doesn’t just mean you can sing in five octaves. Look at Mr. Children, you wouldn’t say that guy’s the best singer in the world, but they sell out the Dome every time with fantastic songs — people are crying in the audience. So which is more talented? Since when is talent the be-all and end-all anyway? Who in Nirvana really had talent — well Dave Grohl has insane talent so I shouldn’t really put it that way, but it’s not about the talent, it’s about the music that they made which appeals to people. This really bugs me about American Idol culture: it’s literally about who can hold the longest high tone and who can sing like Whitney Houston. Music is about so much more! In Japan you kind of want to root for someone who doesn’t have that kind of strong voice.

We know Celine Dion’s going to nail that song from ‘Titanic,’ but is she going to do anything a bit dangerous or cute or make a mistake? This is an emotion that’s not felt in America but it’s a brand over here.

Musicologically there are differences as well though, aren’t there? For example, Japanese pop doesn’t really have so many blue notes.

I can totally go into detail about that if you want! I mean, firstly they don’t have the gospel upbringing of American R&B. Of course there are great singers like Misia who can do a damn good job of it, but even then it’s not made from that, and I don’t think they should even go there. The songs aren’t made for someone to show off their melisma or ad-libbing prowess, which like an Aretha Franklin type person — you don’t need to even give her a melody and she can blow your mind. So no gospel, no blues, what have you got? You’ve got min’yo, enka, kayoukyoku, which are all based on chord voicings that aren’t necessarily heard in American pop, like minor chords with a minor 6th, like the chord that The Beatles end their old songs with, they stick that chord in all kinds of interesting places. And the chord progressions are a little bit closer to white jazz than they are to rock’n’roll. They have minor 7th chords and typical jazz day-one chord progressions in rock songs. This is a big difference: even an amateur band that’s doing sweaty hard rock will do these happy little jazz tweaks or chord changes that you’d never hear in a rock song.

And you consciously apply those conventions to your own J-Pop writing?

It’s at the point now where I write a song and it’s done and I listen back to it and I think, ‘I can’t believe an American did this!’ The first one that really struck me like that was a song by Kotoko called ‘Kirei na Senritsu’ and when it got done, there was no American blood in that song: I’m really good at what I wanted to do apparently because this sounds like it was written by a Japanese person!

But on your new album though, you’ve really taken it back to metal and gone off in a different more sort of progressive rock direction it seems.

When you do music this long, you’ve got to do something that inspires you to keep going, to challenge yourself. Otherwise you’re done, your career’s over at that point. I’m constantly trying to do something new — I rarely listen back at something I’ve done before, or only to find something I didn’t like about it. On this album there’s one song with a sax player named Jørgen Munkeby from Shining. Shining are going to be the new Nine Inch Nails I think: it’s super modern and super heavy, and the music is super catchy, and there’s a sax in there. To me as a metaller, sax is an alien instrument, I don’t like it. But I listen to his music and I know this guy will get it. I told him to go crazy, I’ll pick one of your sax phrases and then loop it. I took the sax first and moved it around and had my way with it! I really despised sax: it’s the easy listening instrument, but I knew when I heard him I had to do it and it turned out to be one of my favourite songs on the record.

Once I have a melody I like and a structure, then I can build something that’s gonna make you get goosebumps or make you excited, but without the melody it’s just mindless riffing.

There are a lot of collaborations on the album. How did that come about?

They’re people in the metal world and guitar world who’ve said nice things about me in interviews. Embarrassingly I don’t really follow what’s going on outside Japan, but the record company in America said, ‘Look, these guys are claiming you as this and that, and all this good stuff, so you should at least know it.’ So they put this list together and I was embarrassed reading it, it was so nice. So I took some names off the list and started listening to them, and these guys were great in their own thing, they don’t sound anything like me, so maybe I’d give them a call and see if we can do something together. Because even more so than the music they made, that enthusiasm is what I liked. I remember one time Michael Schenker came to my house in Arizona unannounced and said, ‘I wanna do this project together; let’s do this project.’ And I was a fan of his since I was little, so to have this guy ask me to do a project with him? I just remember being so excited and I wanted to bring my super A-game to what we did. We did some stuff and it never got released or anything, but I just remember that feeling when I was working on it, and if I could just give some of these guys that feeling and get the fruits of their labor and that enthusiasm, man, it could be something amazing.

You also didn’t really work with any Japanese collaborators on this album. Was that conscious?

I thought it would be interesting to do a simultaneous worldwide release and release something in Japan as a foreigner. It’s a strange situation. I came here just to play domestic Japanese music in whatever shape I could, but at the same time, my management is a television management so I end up doing a lot of media stuff that’s nothing to do with music. It’s kind of a love-hate thing, because in a way it’s great, because it opens tons of doors and allows me to do whatever I want musically, but the downside is that while a lot of people know me, they don’t know I play music. The majority of people come up to me and they’re like, ‘I saw you on Tamori Club,’ you know? That’s all good, but it doesn’t translate to record sales, it doesn’t translate to people coming to my shows. It can be a little frustrating for people trying to find a genre for my music, so the easiest one for the record company is just for me as the foreigner I am.

Some musicians I know who are foreigners living and making music in Japan have this problem of stores not knowing where to file them. They’re part of the japanese music scene and play with Japanese bands, but they don’t look Japanese. It’s frustrating in a way that foreign and domestic music here is segregated in such a way.

It comes down to the ‘gaijin complex’ which hopefully sometime in the future will fade away because it’s lame. Japanese people just think because you’re a foreigner you’re super, and they have this inferiority complex, or some people do. It’s very old fashioned and thankfully that trend is slowing down. I think people should be judged on their merit and whether you like it or not, not where they’re from, but oftentimes, especially in the music business, that’s why it’s separated: because a lot of people who like foreign music think it’s cooler to like foreign music. It’s a little bit elitist to be in that minority — only twenty percent of Japanese people listen to foreign music, so some of those people have this attitude that the Americans, the English, Australians, they’re more upper-crust than us local people. They’re a little bit ashamed of all this idol music, so those people are acting all snobbish listening to whatever, but that’s the wrong reason. There’s extremely intelligent music coming out of Japan, and just because you’re a little bit ashamed of your identity doesn’t mean you should ignore all of it. This complex is embarrassing.

It’s just a matter of time before there’s no foreign music at all here. If you look at record sales, Japan’s really an island unto itself. I mean, eighty percent of it’s made in Japan and the twenty percent is almost like a bonus that you could probably live without, and that includes Maroon 5, Lady Gaga — those people aren’t influencing japanese music all that much, definitely not as much as they are in Korea. You listen to music in Korea and it’s a carbon copy of America.

So what Japanese artists do you rate at the moment?

I’ve been a really big fan of this band called Noa Nowa, their debut single was a song called Loop Loop and they’ve released a lot of fantastic stuff. It’s pop, but it’s very intricately worked out. Sometimes their harmonies sound like Queen, but it’s J-Pop. You could listen to it on the surface and think it’s just light pop but if you tried to play it, there’s a billion chords in it, the modulations are unusual and there’s harmonies all over the place. So you could easily ignore it and think “Oh, it’s J-Pop” but then you listen to it and it’s really deep. Then there’s these guys Bull Zeichen 88, who are ready to take over the world. Japan’s just an amazing place for music. There are so many more people per capita making music in Japan than anywhere else. You can’t go down the street without someone carrying an instrument.

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9 Comments

Filed under Features, Interviews

9 responses to “Interview: Marty Friedman

  1. Jim

    An informative chat, so I checked out his recommendations. Bull Zeichen 88 are a hoot, very entertaining stuff.
    NoaNowa are more interesting, to me. As it stands, there’s some little vital thing missing from their music, can’t put my finger on it. It may have something to do with a remark you made some months back to the effect that songs could be great if they were under 3 minutes, then notsogreat, then great again if they made it over eight minutes, or similar numbers. Their (youtube) tracks are coming in at four or five minutes — the band is too smart to give it up to the groove (the Big Mama Heartbeat, as Beefheart said), but haven’t got the hardheadedness to really crack down on their darlings, to slice, dice, edit and cram them into an explosion. Is that it? Sterner decisions?
    And yes, their modulations are sneaky good; there’s a live song called (I think) “Core” that gives away the source. They’ve listened to a good bit of pre-war cabaret music, Herr Weill and co. Overall, I like ’em, and you can see/hear the progress they’ve made since “Loop Loop.”

    • It just doesn’t grab you by the guy or the balls. Their stuff’s all a bit too pastel coloured for me. The rules of J-Pop are that all songs must be 4-5 minutes long though. No idea why, but simple 2 or 3-minute pop like you used to get in the 60s doesn’t exist here anymore. There’s probably never going to be a Japanese Guided By Voices.

  2. I understand the marketers think they have a point to make, but to my ears, the good Japanese musicians don’t **need** an angle. They don’t need to make songs more R&B (pleaseGodNO), or Western in any other sense. Their music is plenty good enough in its own right. They do need to tour, just like everyone else. But it wouldn’t hurt to simply have the confidence in the incredibly strong material.

    • Is the material really that strong though? I mean the big takeaway from this interview us that the definitions of “strong” are really different between America and Japan, so unless Japanese promoters are going to somehow change how American music culture perceives music, how is that going to happen?

      Basically, you and Marty are in the same boat: you like it as is. Great, but J-Pop is already really good at doing the same thing over and over.

      • Yes, I very much pick and choose. I’m a crazed Yasutaka Nakata fan, and seriously love Judy and Mary generally, but after that I’m picking and choosing individual flashes of inspiration: Taku Takahashi’s ‘Reincarnation’ for Ami Suzuki; ‘Neo Stargate ‘ which I learned about in your blog here; Babymetal “Gimme Chocolate’ (referenced by Friedman above!).
        And that’s how it works in American music too: miles and miles of generic/forgettable/mediocre material to get to the gems. It’s far more the rule for a band to have a few transcendent moments, and mostly fail to reach that level repeated more than once or twice. Likewise, not everything Japan has is going to penetrate the market. But their best stuff need make no apologies.
        *Seriously* good interview above, btw. I so much appreciate your drawing him out on the actual musical content, great stuff.

      • It was partly talking to you on here that gave me the context to engage him on that stuff. I appreciate your input always!

  3. I always find discussions about Japan’s prospects in the Anglophone world to be pretty irrelevant because no Japanese artists have no prospects of gaining popularity. Neither distinctly Japanese artists like Perfume nor westernized artists like Namie Amuro could become popular in the Algophone world. While Japanese artists would have to change substantially to become popular internationally, these efforts would still be futile.

    I think that deepmusiclistening touches on an important point. Since you live in Japan you can’t really filter out the crappy generic songs the way you may be able to for music from foreign markets. I’m having difficulty listening to top 40 radio here in America because it’s comprised almost entirely of generic and lazy house/dubstep/edm pop. In Japan I can imagine it must be difficult being assaulted by the AKB48 family’s music on a regular basis.

    • Quite. I filter Japanese music a lot too by not having a TV, so really the only music I ever hear is what I choose to hear, and with pop music that’s always for “educational” purposes as it were. I agree it’s mostly futile trying to sell J-Pop abroad; I think the only way to do it is to just facilitate stuff that’s already hooked into some sort of international network in reaching people (noise, indiepop, dance music, other transnational niche things). In American pop, I appreciate that it’s mostly horrible, although I was pleased to see Daft Punk’s last album riding so high, and even Kanye West’s last album was pretty good really (barring the absolutely dreadful lyrics). I grew up in Britain in the 90s so I still remember Blur at no.1 in the charts with Beetlebum and weird bands like Super Furry Animals in the top 20, so when I see the charts anywhere nowadays I’m always a bit disappointed because my youth set the bar very high. I guess anyone who was around in Japan in the 90s and remembers Kahimi Karie in the top 10 would probably feel the same. This doesn’t undermine your point — it just puts any discussion of the charts in a bit of context.

  4. I think there *is* a sea change happening in pop music globally, as in every other cultural domain, the growth of what economists call the “long tail”. Because of the Internet, I am aware of, have easy access to, and can **buy** Japanese pop music as I pick and choose (if I like it, I get the CD–no MP3s). The “good old days” (mine were early 1970s) had Top 40 Radio dominated by the same couple of dozen bands over and OVER AND OVER. To this day I can’t hear a phrase of “Take it to the limit” by the Eagles without running screaming out of the room. Because you couldn’t get away from it in 1976.
    The top 40 bands still get their plays, and radio is a wasteland, period. But the Internet is taking that over. All my students are on Pandora and Spotify, listening to their own idiosyncratic tastes and building up subcultures around bands that wouldn’t even have seen a taste of FM album-oriented channels in the 1970s.
    In the future, there will be more of…well, everything. The Internet doesn’t so much replace as just add to. The top part of Japan’s pop music power law distribution has become of the long tail in the rest of the globe. In south Texas, where not that long ago it would have been country or Hispanic artists or NOTHING, a few of my students know the J-pop and K-pop bands; others are following Icelandic rock (??–apparently a thing), others the German inheritors of Kraftwerk. The crossover of Marty Friedman working in J-Pop is *exactly* what music needs, growing that long tail.
    Despite our overlord’s–sorry, ClearChannel’s, best efforts, the U.S. artists at the very top are getting less market share than they used to. Good. All the best stuff is in the long tail, most of the time.

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